“What degrees of freedom are being curbed?”
Following the discussion on entry of visitors into hostel rooms, T5E interviewed the Dean of Students, Prof. L. S. Ganesh, who answered some questions that many students had to ask. Following is a transcript of the interview:
T5E: Sir, could you elaborate more about the rule?
LSG: The Council of Wardens (CoW), in its recent meeting, unanimously proposed the policy of permitting entry of girl students into specifically earmarked visitors rooms in our boys’ hostels, rather than into any of the boys’ rooms. While the necessary facilities are created, the hostel common room could serve as a visitors room. Some of the student representatives – The SAC Speaker, SGS, HAS, and Sharavati General Secretary – who were invited to the meeting voiced their opinions and concerns, and presented supporting points for encouraging healthy academic and personal interactions among our male and female students for their holistic development as mature individuals. As of now, entry of girls into the rooms of their male friends/classmates is permitted in the night until 09:00 p.m. The proposal to modify the existing policy has to be discussed further within our Institute administration before a final decision in this matter is officially stated and implemented.
T5E: Why is this policy being considered now for implementation?
LSG: As I’ve stated, the policy is yet to be implemented. However, keeping in mind the possible concerns among some of our students, I wish to add that there are certain well-established traditions and norms in Indian society that the CoW, and all of us, must uphold in our campus. At the same time, we must carefully balance these traditions with the evolving, modern socio-cultural realities. We are sincerely trying to find feasible middle ground between these two differing positions of traditions and modernity. Keeping in mind the best interests of our Institute, students, and their parents, the CoW has proposed this policy. However, we genuinely want to encourage healthy interactions among our girls and boys for academic and socio-cultural activities, thus the idea of visitors rooms emerged. Of course, please let us note that our entire campus and the numerous facilities are open to use by our students for these interactions; the proposed visitors rooms is one more option that we are providing as an alternative to the boys’ rooms.
T5E: Why were the statistics of the Colloquium poll and discussion not considered? Doesn’t it indicate that students’ views were not given any importance?
LSG: Less than 600 students out of 7000+ have taken that poll. Could we please analyse the academic and socio-cultural composition of the sample? So, statistically speaking, prima facie I’d suspect both, a bias among the respondents and a non-response bias in the results. Moreover, given the stakeholders related to, and the nature and scope of this issue, why should the poll be conducted only among students? What would the results be, had parents and our faculty also participated in it? As far as students’ views are concerned, we did invite student representatives to the meeting. They were asked to suggest compelling reasons in support of girls being permitted access into boys’ rooms, and they could not come up with any. We are and will be open to any relevant suggestions/alternatives that any of you can give.
T5E: Many students see this as moral policing and curbing of freedom…
LSG: I want the students to answer a few questions:
(a) What degrees of freedom are being curbed now, and how, in terms of our students – boys and girls – having/gaining access to and use of our Institute’s facilities and infrastructure like hostels, library, labs, eateries, classrooms, stadium, play-fields, OAT, lecture halls, roads, nooks and corners, etc?
(b) When, where and how has the administration ever stopped our students – boys and girls – from socializing?
(c) Have our boys and girls holding hands or putting their arms around each other while walking on the roads, or even embracing each other, ever been stopped from decent, acceptable public show of affection?
If indeed, there have been incidents of any curtailment of such degrees of freedom, I would urge you to call me anytime, and I will intervene directly and appropriately. I have clearly discussed with some officers in our Security Section to instruct all the Institute and contract security personnel to respect individuals’ personal freedom and space, even when public show of affection within decent, acceptable limits is noticed. We respect the need for our students to be encouraged to interact with each other, academically and otherwise. We do offer them more than ample space and facilities to do so. In fact, starting with this academic year, girl students have been given the choice to dine in boys’ messes too. Moral policing is certainly a most inappropriate term in this context.
T5E: Students feel they are not being treated as responsible adults. What would you like to say to that?
LSG: The students need to understand themselves a lot first, which is quite a challenge. Unlike Western society, most parents in India do not raise their children to be independent, self-governed adults. We continue to raise our children in a protective environment, with only some degrees of freedom. In India, the legal age for adulthood is 18, but, how many parents (faculty members) will truly accept that their wards (students) are responsible for themselves at that age? When parents leave their children here, they expect the administration to understand this and accordingly treat their wards. We have had stray incidents of parents blaming the administration for undesirable incidents. “Your child is a responsible adult; he/she should have considered the short-term and long-term consequences before making the mistake” – would parents accept such a statement from our administration? They would sharply criticize our administration for letting the possibility of the mistake be realized in the first place. That’s how most Indian parents are, and we have faced this sometimes in the past. My opinion is that Indian adolescents think that they are responsible adults, while we elders know that they are not. After all, we elders can certainly reflect upon our adolescent days and recall our “experiences” and their consequences. Naturally, we are eager to guide our children and youth to avoid the high probability, undesirable effects of their thoughts, words and actions.
T5E: Is there anything else you want to convey to the students?
LSG: Please have faith in our leadership and administration, and trust us teachers. First and foremost, we act in the best short-term and long-term interests of our Institute. Certainly, we are your well wishers and will not mislead or misguide you. We must realize that ours is an institution of national importance, although we enjoy autonomy in many areas, we are answerable to the general public, and to the authorities that represent the general public. The IIT tag gets you, me and everyone in our institute a lot of respect in our society, but it also subjects us to lot of legitimate expectations from the same society. Our students enjoy enough freedom and facilities, much more than their friends in most other colleges. We want all of you to use this freedom for personal development in all fields – personal health, academics, sports, leadership and socio-cultural activities. Why? Because you young folk must be the prime movers of India’s competitive strength and capacity in global markets and forums. While I certainly do not wish to divert from the theme of this interview, I wish to underscore the fact that India is languishing in the bottom decile of competitiveness. Wake up! Work with purpose, with determination and conviction. Work harder and harder, smarter and smarter. Work for the day, which may even be realized in your lifetimes (certainly not mine, for I have but a few years more to say bye! bye!), when India will be the “go to” place for everyone for every moral, ethical, socio-cultural and civilisational reason.
T5E conducted a small video survey (Vox Populi) about this issue. Click here to view it.
Also read ‘Adulthood and Responsibility‘, an opinion piece written by an alumnus of IIT Madras in context of the same issue.
My comment was moderated out. Disappointing. I am raising my question again. Why are there 47 comments for this article and none for the article on “Weeding out…”? Why is there no discussion in T5E about DC++?
Hey Sumanth, I was being sarcastic. I’ve said this before: culture evolves.
Again, my point is no one is telling you what to do. Maybe you should do the same? Or do you think you’re better than everyone else that they have to be guided by your principles and your understanding of Indian culture?
The Indian culture gave the world a little book called Kamasutra. Just thought everyone should remember.
@ Sajad,
How narrow perception you have about Indian culture !! Indian culture is very broad, earlier they have used palm leaves to write on, now we are using books and pens or laptops to study, the principle is the same. They are just tools, what you use them for is characterized by culture.
@ everyone who said I can do whatever I like including sex….
Secondly, The room is not yours, just like when you break the tube lights cupboards etc., the student going to occupy could be disturbed, you cannot do everything and anything as you wish, administration has the right to keep rules in common interest.
If you are so desperate get out of insti and do what ever you want.
and finally as put forth by welcome rule…
There are still very very important things to do, rather than just trying to get officially a girl allowed to your room, what ever the reasons could be!
@ oliver
hey, you sound as if you know better, about this !
@SubramaniamChandrasekar
its nice to see someone interested to debate about the Indian culture.
which text do you want to debate on? select any one on the following ? How much time do you want ?
Sample question:
Refute the statement ‘your mother is not barren’.
Answer this I will consider debating you!
From the Rigveda
001 Aitareya Upanishad
002 Aksha-Malika Upanishad – about rosary beads
003 Atma-Bodha Upanishad
004 Bahvricha Upanishad
005 Kaushitaki-Brahmana Upanishad
006 Mudgala Upanishad
007 Nada-Bindu Upanishad
008 Nirvana Upanishad
009 Saubhagya-Lakshmi Upanishad
010 Tripura Upanishad
From the Shuklapaksha Yajurveda
011 Adhyatma Upanishad
012 Advaya-Taraka Upanishad
013 Bhikshuka Upanishad
014 Brihadaranyaka Upanishad
015 Hamsa Upanishad
016 Isavasya Upanishad
017 Jabala Upanishad
018 Mandala-Brahmana Upanishad
019 Mantrika Upanishad
020 Muktika Upanishad
021 Niralamba Upanishad
022 Paingala Upanishad
023 Paramahamsa Upanishad
024 Satyayaniya Upanishad
025 Subala Upanishad
026 Tara-Sara Upanishad
027 Trisikhi-Brahmana Upanishad
028 Turiyatita-Avadhuta Upanishad
029 Yajnavalkya Upanishad
From the Krishnapaksha Yajurveda
030 Akshi Upanishad
031 Amritabindhu Upanishad
032 Amritanada Upanishad
033 Avadhuta Upanishad
034 Brahma-Vidya Upanishad
035 Brahma Upanishad
036 Dakshinamurti Upanishad
037 Dhyana-Bindu Upanishad
038 Ekakshara Upanishad
039 Garbha Upanishad
040 Kaivalya Upanishad
041 Kalagni-Rudra Upanishad
042 Kali-Santarana Upanishad
043 Katha Upanishad
044 Katharudra Upanishad
045 Kshurika Upanishad
046 Maha-Narayana (or) Yajniki Upanishad
047 Pancha-Brahma Upanishad
048 Pranagnihotra Upanishad
049 Rudra-Hridaya Upanishad
050 Sarasvati-Rahasya Upanishad
051 Sariraka Upanishad
052 Sarva-Sara Upanishad
053 Skanda Upanishad
054 Suka-Rahasya Upanishad
055 Svetasvatara Upanishad
056 Taittiriya Upanishad
057 Tejabindu Upanishad
058 Varaha Upanishad
059 Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad
060 Yoga-Sikha Upanishad
061 Yoga-Tattva Upanishad
From the Samaveda
062 Aruni (Aruneyi) Upanishad
063 Avyakta Upanishad
064 Chandogya Upanishad
065 Darsana Upanishad
066 Jabali Upanishad
067 Kena Upanishad
068 Kundika Upanishad
069 Maha Upanishad
070 Maitrayani Upanishad
071 Maitreya Upanishad
072 Rudraksha-Jabala Upanishad
073 Sannyasa Upanishad
074 Savitri Upanishad
075 Vajrasuchika Upanishad
076 Vasudeva Upanishad
077 Yoga-Chudamani Upanishad
From the Atharvaveda
078 Annapurna Upanishad
079 Atharvasikha Upanishad
080 Atharvasiras Upanishad
081 Atma Upanishad
082 Bhasma-Jabala Upanishad
083 Bhavana Upanishad
084 Brihad-Jabala Upanishad
085 Dattatreya Upanishad
086 Devi Upanishad
087 Ganapati Upanishad
088 Garuda Upanishad
089 Gopala-Tapaniya Upanishad
090 Hayagriva Upanishad
091 Krishna Upanishad
092 Maha-Vakya Upanishad
093 Mandukya Upanishad
094 Mundaka Upanishad
095 Narada-Parivrajaka Upanishad
096 Nrisimha-Tapaniya Upanishad
097 Para-Brahma Upanishad
098 Paramahamsa-Parivrajaka Upanishad
099 Pasupata Brahmana Upanishad
100 Prasna Upanishad
101 Rama Rahasya Upanishad
102 Rama-Tapaniya Upanishad
103 Sandilya Upanishad
104 Sarabha Upanishad
105 Sita Upanishad
106 Surya Upanishad
107 Tripadvibhuti-Mahanarayana Upanishad
108 Tripura-Tapini Upanishad
Puranas.
Brahmavaivarta Purana – 18,000 verses.
1) Vishnu Purana – 23,000 verses.
2) Naradiya Purana – 25,000 verses.
3) Padma Purana – 55,000 verses.
4) Garuda Purana – 19,000 verses..
5) Varaha Purana – 24,000 verses.
6) Bhagavata Purana – 18,000 verses.
7) Brahmanda Purana – 12,000 verses.
9) Markandeya Purana – 9,000 verses.
10) Bhavisya Purana – 14,500 verses.
11) Vamana Purana – 10,000 verses.
12) Brahma Purana – 10,000 verses.
13) Matsya Purana – 14,000 verses.
14) Kurma Purana – 17,000 verses.
15) Linga Purana – 10,000 verses.
16) Shiva Purana – 24,000 verses.
17) Skanda Purana – 81,000 verses.
18) Agni Purana – 15,400 verses.
@ Subramaniyam
First read what my views exactly are….
For ur help, I repeat: ‘Institute gives enough space and opportunity for boys and girls to interact for sports/socio-cultural/academic purposes’
I have also done projects with girls as my team-mates, without any need to call them to my room….In Library (a lot of space is there, and even wifi is also there….for ur info that I feel u are overlooking!)
Also I mentioned that ‘It’s not against anyone’s rights as such’.
It’s not understandable that anyone’s rights are being harmed due to this law….
u talk about someone’s wife/daughter, they and their relatives would be happy with such a rule as they would be able to respect such relationships, and would like to see everyone with such healthy relationships, and not just any timepass relationships in the name of modernity or maturity…
And u also suggest administration to mind on important things (research level, etc), then why r u so worried and so against the implementation of such a rule….Get urself away with ur ‘important’ things and mind ur own reserch and ‘Nobel Prize’ aspirations (whatever)….
Anyone can see ur ”double standards”.
And please talk sense…
Is it the excessive addiction to pornography that makes someone think that when a girl visits a boy’s room, that’ll be probably to have sex ?
Also, Arun.
Bachelor comes from the French word baccalauréat which means “berry leaves”. A colonial heirloom that we still ape in our continued shameless seeking of Western acceptance. Again, not every Indian culture-ish. Just thought I’d let you know since you’re a champion of Indian culture.
Hey Arun,
Your grandfather never used a computer when he was your age. That’s against Indian culture too. I don’t see that stopping you.
If that’s the life you want, you go for it man! No one’s telling you to have sex with random girls and waste your energy and time that should be dedicated to studying and getting placed with multiple lakhs per annum. Exactly the same reason, you shouldn’t be telling everyone else what to do. Or are you scared that your power of will is easily bent by the others around you having sex and that you’ll cave in to these “beastly” desires? Even so, that’s your problem. Don’t expect people to live the way YOU want them to.
@subramaniachandrashekhar
what is your problem? His english or girls not coming to your room
@xyz
“Why not talk about why IITians aren’t exactly turning out to be the best the country has to offer?”
just because they dont want to be. they are just happy if a girl is allowed in their rooms officially. What a silly thing? will this yield nobel prizes and Olympic medals to IITM?
You can excel if you are determined in any situation, provided you dont let dirt into your system which takes the form of idle gossip, useless internet surfing, pornography. Why always complain about things you dont have control over? Learn to manage your time, resources… This is what indian culture is all about. First of all LEARN how you can become an exemplary person yourself with a view to help and contribute to society positively. If one does not have control and discipline over his own life, one can’t control his own pushings and pullings from with in… what can he achieve in his life? May be some nobel prizes and Olympic medals!!! Good luck.
@subramanya…
In india everybody doesnt know good english. Why do you divert from main topic? What is the use of your good english if you only want to promote nonsense and support rubbish stuff caring nothing for values?
@xyz
I too dont know who you are… One thing is clear… If you are given charge of, you will make IIT into prostitute house with in no time.
First step: Allow contraceptives in gurunath, next: not enough girls in college, allow others from outside as well… no end to the degradation.
I only feel sorry for all of you people. You think you are smart just because you could write and speak well. According to me it is simply perverted intelligence only.
Surely, we do need enjoyment. But sex is such a thing once you give in… you are lost. No matter how interesting the education is, how wonderful the professors are… you can never focus on all that. Whole of your energy just goes in to satisfy the beastly propensity.
Dear friends… Yes there are lot more things to be discussed other than ’sex’ etc… But please understand this is very foundational. That is why the degree name that we get is ‘BACHELOR of Technology’. Dont become a bachelor daddy/mummy. If you lose control over this… your life is finished. You will simply become a hungry beast not satisfied with anything and will go down and degrade yourself to an animal level.
Yes we do have desires as our age is like that. SO what? get your degree, go out and get married. If you have full on affairs now only – i will write and give you you will be frustrated with your life partner. You will stick out your neck out of window and see if you could find some one else… where is the end of that futile frustrated life’s struggle my brother?
Sex is wonderful… provided you channelize it properly. Indian culture is so wholesome and wonderful. It never says no to sex but says no to unrestricted sex (sex before marriage and outside marriage). My grand father and grand mother had 12 children and lived a joyous life till 88yrs of age. There was such trust and love amongst them… Now a days the couple that gets married… each one have so many doubts about their partner… so much disturbance, so much lack of peace and lack of trust. Unrestricted sex has caused havoc in families, taken lives of people, broken hearts of people… It is simply a disturbance. Those who give into this trap victimized by modern advertizements and media surely is an unfortunate being causing only disturbace to society in name of his own ‘Right to privacy’.
@Definecultureplease
It’s the emotion that I am talking about.
Definitely, the situation will be that the world will not mistreat other person’s sister/daughter/wife, and will think twice before having any strong inclination towards that.
And no doubt u r a rascal who wants to bring a girl to his room to have ”private personal interaction”. And the way u have brought this phrase in ur comment, u need not ”define” it, everyone is able to understand that what kind of ‘culture’ u want in IIT…
And it’s not hard to conclude that u r a very frustated individual and u have strong lusty desires….
BEWARE OF GOOD PEOPLE….
@Arun – whoever you are, I think you’re either being really trippy or just insensitive to a lot of issues. Either way, your arguments made me laugh.
Firstly, how sure are we it is students having sex that is the main issue here? In case it is, I think there are a few things we should make clear. As long as it is consensual between the two participating individuals, no one else should stop them. I do not believe that ‘guarding the Indian value system’ is an excuse at all in this case because there is no aggregate ‘Indian value system’. The administration is responsible only when someone is molested or someone meets with an undesired sexual encounter which is against ANY human value system. Contraceptives should be made easily available at places like Gurunath. No one here is still too young to point and giggle.
Secondly, I believe, and I think a couple of people have mentioned this before me, that the administration should look at more important things than its students having sex. Why do we not talk about updating courses or changing pedagogy, making classes interesting enough for students to want to come and not have to? Why not talk about why IITians aren’t exactly turning out to be the best the country has to offer? Why are IITs getting students who by the end of first year realize they don’t want to become engineers?
Arun/Welcome rule, is giving us enough evidence on how, there is a serious lack of exposure amongst male IITians, to interaction (even academic),with girls and the understanding that girls (including the person’s sister) are human beings and are actually capable of existing on their own, let alone make decisions. Also, the O level preparatory English course does not seem to have helped him. I seriously worry about his sister and future brother-in-law though. I wonder if he will start a purification crusade of Lan also very soon.
@DefineCultureplease
Lets not speak big big things like law, this and that. Why dont you have a commonsense to understand what is happening.
It simply pains me if my sister is mistreated the way these “IIT intellectuals” want to deal with them. Your head can be in clouds but keep your feet on the ground. Apply common sense man!
‘personal interaction’ – what do you mean? do it else where. Why? simple. I dont want my hostel to become a prostitution house. get out of the campus and do all your hellish nonsense somewhere else. Who stops you?
PPl are speaking about right to privacy… dont you know that we also have responsibility to let people live with dignity. You dally with one girl and it invariably ends up with broken relationship/ heart break and much frustration. Then what? Another girl!!!??? Simple. Dont play with lives of people in name of right for privacy. Lets not flare up the baser instincts. Simply YOU are going to be frustrated.
Again a Simple thing!!! If somebody else calls your sister to his room and behaves badly. What will you do? I would really want to break his bones. It is not about indian law, it is not about this and that… simple human emotion.
Now one says yeah… at our age… sexula impulse is natural, we are to be given freedom. Yes. If sexual impulse is natural, then the by product of having sex also must be natural and you have to accept that as well. Why you fools want to use contraceptives etc? Be natural man. Get a child. Take responsibility to raise him/her. You want to enjoy but not take responsibility. So i will call you a RASCAL.
to Dean: WOnderful law… Please do implement without fail.
@Welcome Rule
You don’t seem to follow a lot of news, right? Honour killing is punishable with death sentence.
First of all, such a rule is not against anyone’s rights… If a boy wants to interact with a girl for academic, sports or socio-cultural purposes, the institute clearly gives enough space and opportunity for that.
”Private, personal interaction” and expression of ‘’sexual desires” are anti-social, as both boy and girl are from respective families, and so they have duties towards their families also. If someone interacts sexually with my sister, then I also have RIGHT to murder that person.
If u call my sister to ur room and do nonsense, then I will come to ur room and murder u….MY RIGHT!
Before I start, how much of this discussion really matters? It seems really pointless for a bunch of students to be fighting it out here when no one is really going to take it into account.
Firstly – I don’t see any solid reason being given as to why this change of rules is happening in the first place. Instead of tackling that, we are fighting over why or why not it should happen.
Secondly – I do not see how it is the responsibilty of the administration to keep up moral and cultural standards. More importantly WHOSE standards are they trying to abide by?
Thirdly – all that can be gathered from the recent changes that are being made is that the administration does not want responsibility for what the students do. I understand that. It shouldn’t be the administration to have to take the blame for what students do. And if they are so worried about parents blaming them, they should have them sign a form which says that the administration is not responsible for any student’s personal and private activities. There has to be some separation between family values and values imposed by an institution.
Seems more of a rant. Poor interviewing skills, I must say. Interviewer let off LSG and let him rant along.
@Sashank
It is wrong of you to assume that other students are not concerned about stuff. I have frequently engage in conversations with friends, professors and even the DoS on many of the issues concerning my institute.
Consider an example of University of California, Berkley, it has 91 Olympic Gold Medalists and 71 Nobel Prize winners on its list of alumni/faculty/associates etc. All we can boast of is a single Padma Sri in our campus. It would be better, if the administration concentrated on asking how to improve itself, how to make the education more “interesting” (Think ID 1200 or whatever that God/Science/Leprechaun forsaken course was called). How have our research resources improved? How have the students encouraged to ask questions or do research? Are we ever going to become “World Class” in a true sense, and not be just better than the college in the opposite campus? (Btw, it at least has the distinction of being one of the oldest engineering colleges in the world and definitely in India).
Honestly, these are not questions with easy answers and the administration has decided , like many of us in question papers decided to opt for the easier questions in the examination and has decided to answer them. Unfortunately they have failed to realize that their answers for them are poorly formulated.
Now, let it be that The mess timings are not logical (at least in your definition), does not mean other rules should also be the same way. Thankfully owing to some people with good sense, tea timings have been changed.
Can you elaborate on the legal obligation of the institute on the issue of two people of the opposite sex interacting, in academic or non academic sense, in any hour of the day? If a man (woman) assaults a woman (man), it the only obligation the institute has is to ensure the woman(man) gets justice.
There is a difference between freedom and licentiousness, which you hardly seem to understand. One’s freedom ends at the other persons nose, which would not be the case, if we were driving haphazardly as we would be endangering others lives. The same holds true, although more obviously and significantly, for smoking, and drunk driving (drinking by itself in ones room, is less harmful than reading from a pirated book, if you ask some of the publishing companies) where the externality suffered by those around us is quite significant. Those rules are based on a)Scientific Evidence b)Sound Logic. and are not arbitary as the ones imposed on us by the administration (including the attendance rule, which was pointed by a Common IITian)
@IITM Student
But the ban also extends for mothers, sisters and wives in some hostels. Some of the holiest relationships in most religions and cultures, especially in India. Pathetic situation ain’t it?
@Sidarth,
Don’t generalize about people being reticent. sometimes even the more orthodox people you know, might not have had a problem speaking about such issues to their parents.
@shashank
As many people have pointed out in this thread already, my contention with the arguments and reasoning by the Dean of Students is in the manner in which he tries to spin a positive light on some decision which he/governing body wants implemented. At least if he was honest in saying that the governing body wants to ban girls entry to boys’ rooms I’d would have respected that though I don’t personally like it. He could have come out and said “Look here’s the problem. We are more concerned about the name of the institute. We are more concerned about the Indian culture the way we see it. You students don’t have a vote in the decision making process. So the decision was made and live with it.” It is entirely rational. It is not even unimaginable I say. North Korea springs to mind almost instantly.
If he thinks the students had any say in the matter, then the poll results wouldn’t have been overlooked or shrugged away as we are the primary stakeholders in the matter. I get the need to rationalize the decisions you make. Heck I do them all the time. But when your decisions affect the life of many, you should also be willing to accept the responsibilities that come with it. So it is ironic to hear talks of students lacking responsibility and of their unwillingness to accept the consequences of their actions when their own mentor falters in doing so.
To answer your question regarding traffic rules. Some order is better than no order. But more order need to be better than some order. So yes it you are willing to get run over by a bus, be my guest. But if you want to run somebody over, be prepared to face the consequences.
@shashank
I am glad that you asked the question. In fact I’ve mailed many in the administration (including the Dean, Chairman Council of Wardens, and the Director) and in the Student Representatives on many issues. I’ve not shied away from mailing uncomfortable question to them. (In fact, I recently argued for setting up of smoke-rooms in each hostel so that non-smokers aren’t affected by smokers – unfortunately law of the land wouldn’t permit IIT to do that)
There are no ‘legal obligations’ for the IITM Administration with respect to girls’ entry into boys’ rooms (unlike the ban on smoking, consumption of alcohol, and possession and use of weed which the Admin is legally bound to obey).
The biggest problem that I find with the Institute is the obsession that it has with maintaining its ‘name’. As an Institute of National Importance, it need not be revered all the time! It has to be applauded when required, criticized when necessary, and corrective steps taken. Even the Indian Parliament is not beyond criticism. Why should institute be afraid of the media?
Private interaction will include anything that they willingly do. It need not just be restricted to sex (as most of this discussion seems to hint at). What if they want to see a movie together in one of their rooms?
hhahahaha…hilarous…IITs are going down the drain
@subramanian
@define culture please.
Consider this, since the time you have entered IIT, had there been this rule already implemented.
would you have ever quesitoned it?
If your answer is yes think about have you ever questioned the mess timings, or in the first place entry of boys into grils hostels.
It goes to show this is only a reactive, that too selectively finding the faults of a decision, not trying to understand the legal obligations, or the challenges from media or other sources that pose a threat to the name of our institute.
@define culture please.
could you please eloborate on the private interaction that you consider equally important??
@vineeth.
don’t create such a hyp…ddn’t you voice the same concern to the government as well for bothering you with the traffic rules.
Lets all just complete our degrees and get out of this place. Its not as if there are many “girl hands” here to be held. We can do whatever we want after graduating. In Teachers we trust !!..lol
@Chaitanya
Let us logically plot your argument,
IIT is in Chennai,
Most of Chennai is not liberal ,
IIT should also not be liberal.
So,
India is in Asia
Most of Asia is not a democracy,
So India Should not be a democracy
Samma Comedy sir neenga..
@ definecultureplease
Look at it this way. Suppose you have taken a room on rent basis. The owner of the room, as per the original terms of your contract, asks you to vacate within the month/ two months. He/she decided something you do at the room is detrimental to his/her business interests and you are asked to vacate within tone month as per your original contractual obligation. Is he/she not within their rights to do so? Even in this case you have some defense, as since you paid full value for the room, you have some partial claim to it, especially if you are not doing anything there that deviate from what you are legally permitted to do. So it can be taken to court, although you’ll probably lose (because your landlord has, in this matter, absolute control over his property) THere are some exceptions to this – I think if you live in a place for 20 years or something, you assume ownership rights – I’m a little vague about this
Now in the case that you payed a meager sum for it, the rest of which was subsidized by the landlord himself, then your case becomes weaker. It’s the same thing with the IITM hostel administration. What they are really saying is – vacate the hostel, live on your own, and do what you want. How are they not within their rights to do so?
Also – financial dependence means that the parent has some control over what you do. Refuse money from your parents and they have no control/responsibility. Nobody is “losing their fundamental rights” because their dignity/freedom is not being compromised. You are perfectly free to refuse financial assistance on the given terms and conditions and do as you please. Your dignity/self remains inviolate in any tangible, valid terms. Similarly, elders who are financially dependent are in the same boat. If they don’t comply with rules of their dependence upon son/daughter, they too can refuse. I don’t see the problem here.
Chaitanya’s comment about the ‘reality’ in conservative Chennai is not completely relevant to this debate about the normativity of the administration’s reasons behind justifying the implementation of the said rule regarding the entry of girls into boys’ rooms. The ‘real’ world and practicality has little to do with debating the pro’s and cons of a policy such as this one. Also, Sajad’s comment on culture is relevant because culture itself cannot be an argument for either approving or disapproving any rule that deals with individuals and groups of individuals. The justification behind the culture, and the reasons associated with its origins need to be taken into account.
Siddharth’s comment about IITM Hostels being subsidized and hence us having to follow rules is infallible, as far as i can see. But it needs to be kept in mind here that the principle stakeholders in any policy is the student body, and if any decision is made leaving them out of the loop, it would be the top-down implementation of an ‘expert’s views, rather than participatory policy making. Similarly, LSG’s argument about the poll having to cover all the stakeholders, i.e. the parents and the faculty can be questioned. The Students here are the primary stakeholders, and they are presumably representative of thier’s parents consent on the issue. If not, the parent’s must be taken into account, as Siddharth again has rightly pointed out. The debate must start at home. But i do not see how the faculty is a legitimate body of stakeholders in this issue. The Administration perhaps, but not the faculty.
Then again, the compelling reason LSG wanted is nothing but a desire for privacy. A freedom to do what we can within the purview of the law/rules/reasonable limits(what come under ‘reasonable’ here, cannot be decided unilaterally!!). As Changerous also pointed out, a 600 acre campus and plenty of space for interaction within the limits is a false facade that crumbles under the slightest provocation.
Chaitanya, culture and religion are two different things. I agree there is a causal interaction between the two. If India were a religious republic, like Pakistan or the Middle Eastern state, all your arguments will be valid. But I wasn’t aware IITs were established with idea of upholding Hindu culture which is what is being paraded as Indian culture. Culture evolves. Just like you point out. From hunter-gatherers, there were the dark ages, there was modernity and the change is constant. People like you & LSG were there when these changes happened over time urging everyone to hold on to their “culture”. But thankfully, it was overcome.
@Siddharth
Hostel accommodation is not entirely free. Each student pays 5000 every semester towards Establishment A charges. (This is different from the Establishment B charges which is equivalent to the hostel budget passed by the hostel council). But linking subsidy and curbing of fundamental rights is problematic. As far as I know, Right to Privacy is a Fundamental Right (under the expanded definition of Right to Life) as declared by the Supreme Court of India and I’m unsure if an implied contractual obligation (by the means of subsidy) is valid grounds for the termination of such right.
The suggestion that ‘market rate’ be charged for the hostels is also mired in several problems. Better suggestion would have been to charge “operational costs + capital investment interest”. But since I have not agreed to your earlier suggestion that fundamental rights are overridden by an implied contractual obligation, I am not going further into the “market rate” argument.
It is curious that you define adult as “financially independent” (this argument takes away the age factor from the picture). I am afraid under that definition, parents in their old age, who are financially dependent on their children will lose their fundamental rights too.
It is also curious that you assert that these debates should start at home. Such movements have been always from “without” and not from “within”. Changes have to brought about from outside,and have succeeded too.
IITM should consider making a video on these lines. seriously!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq02OOzo1YE
Yet another internet flame war…..here we go.
So I tried what the Dean suggested. With faith in the administration and trust in my teachers, I visited the stadium at dusk to interact with a female student. However, before I can even attempt to hold her hand, six people with heavy duty flashlights accost me. I’m threatened and asked to leave the stadium because my presence with a girl is ’spoiling the nature on campus’ while a bunch of older men coolly smoke ‘beedis’ a hundred metres away. Well, as my elders know that I’m not a responsible adult and they are all dressed in the institute police force’s uniform, I assume they are right and embark on a search for these ‘go to’ places the Dean is talking about. However, that didn’t work too well for me. Since our Dean has ‘clearly discussed with some officers in our Security Section to instruct all the Institute and contract security personnel to respect individuals’ personal freedom and space’, I don’t know if I ought to refer to them as ‘thugs with flashlights’. After all, ‘Moral policing is certainly a most inappropriate term in this context’.
The arguments provided by LSG only partially engage with the actual problem here:
1) Firstly, boarding in IITM hostels is subsidized (actually students pay nothing for lodging per se – correct me if I’m wrong. Since this is the case, the hostel is within its right to impose restrictions that do not come in conflict with the fundamental rights of students. It can be argued that the right to sexual liaison is subsumed within the right to freedom, and such an argument would be valid. At the same time, however, in the process of subsidization, a contract has been established between the students and the hostel administration, which holds that the student is given board upon his compliance with those rules. Since non-compliance only leads to eviction (from a residence that the student did not pay for in the first place and therefore has no claim to) it cannot be said, from another point of view, to infringe upon the individual’s right to freedom. This is then a grey area. The administration, then, should either (a) charge market rates for boarding in a number of hostels and admit students with no ridiculous rules such as this or (b)erect new hostels with such a financial scheme.
2) The parents-children argument is actually valid, though not in the form articulated by LSG. When an individual is considered an ‘adult’, that implies that he or she is financially independent. Now in the case of IITM students in particular and Indian higher education in general, parents pay the fees of their wards (as a rule of thumb) as opposed to Western liberal education, where parental financial responsibility for higher education is significantly lower (read: a lot of American students pay their way through college through loans in their names). So it is valid, in a sense, for parents to prevent their children (and they are that in this scenario) from engaging in activities that they believe are detrimental to their financial investment. I’m by no means saying that IITM administration should not treat the students as consenting adults. I’m saying that there needs to be consent from parents (who hold financial responsibility over their wards)for a number of these ‘freedoms’. Remember: implied in any democratic notion of ‘adult’ is an end to parental financial responsibility. A solution here would be to ask for signed waivers from parents to rules that can be said to infringe upon the ward’s freedom. Students who are currently bearing the financial responsibility for their education, it goes without saying, should not be subjected to these rules in the first place after dealing with issue (1) as such.
In philosophy though, those above 18 should be able to have sex with whomever they please in a private space provided such an act is within the law of the land. What is needed is a “socio-cultural” debate, which must start at home. I hope everybody who argues for sexual freedom on campus also makes an attempt to argue for the same at home, with their families, extended families etc (where I have found we can be uncharacteristically reticent)
I agree with our DoS, that most parents would object to such interactions. Say, let us take it as the Golden rule and ponder about many such instances in the institute, which are a great threat to students, which our parents will feel threatened about.
1) Cyclone Nilam, was such a threat that, districts across two states declared holidays for students, offices closed. It’s effects were pretty evident in the institute. However, we were expected to walk about around shaky and weak trees, will about 3 P.M, when the day was cancelled. Would our parents like going to classes at the risk of our limbs if not for our life. Agreed the probability is negligible, but so is it for the instance cited by the dean.
2)Clearly, Dengue is a major threat in Tamil Nadu. What measures have we seen, except the occasional spray, and the weak poster in front of Vindhya? Are are toilets cleaned? Is water stagnation being addressed? Walk around the Physics department and you can see at least 5 breeding sites for the mosquitoes.
Will our parents accept for these alone?
If a person with dengue is more likely to be found, than a pregnant girl,(considering the lack of girls ,good enough boys in campus,the success rate of contraceptives), and still can be addressed through posters, why can’t the latter be?
The Admin, is trying to be more Indian, than the Governments in India themselves. Who else comes up with arbitrary and inconsistent logic and transfers it all on culture, when they have little clue either about its history or evolution?
If someone wants to debate to me about Indian Culture, or anything Indian, especially cricket and Hinduism be careful, very careful…
I just have a simple issue with Dean’s remarks — “They were asked to suggest compelling reasons in support of girls being permitted access into boys’ rooms, and they could not come up with any.” !! What is happening to the IIT student community ? Have they lost all ability to mount a simple argumentative challenge ? …. consider this —
1. Since the administration is proposing a new change, a significant one -banning entry of girls in hostels — the BURDEN of COMPELLING REASON is on the administration. Why change existing policy ? Does this mean that the administration all these years was negligent towards its own students .. exposing them to decadent Western traditions of “meeting in boys’ rooms” ? Being an ex-student, I am appalled and terribly grieved that my admin. did not care for my personal health and my parent’s worldviews while having such liberal policies in my time. Can I sue them now? What has happened to warrant such a change ? What will the change accomplish ? Will boys and girls stop spending too much time with each other and suddenly start preparing for quizzes ? I wonder.
2. The ludicrousness of the claim that the admin is interested in promoting “exchanges” between girls and boys and hence is providing visitors’ room is laughable. Apparently, they are so interested that they want new infrastructure for it, while rooms just aren’t enough for the holistic interaction that they have in mind!
|| Also, it is quite funny reading TFE articles and seeing how seriously people are taking these issues. I don’t know why I am commenting either. Nostalgia and boredom, probably.
@IITM Student – one shouldn’t have ‘personal life’ inside the institute because it is subsidized education? Ok let’s wait till 2013 when the fees of students will not be subsidized anymore. Then can we have personal life inside IIT? Will girls be allowed inside boy’s rooms from 2013 onwards?
@Chaitanya – what the institute curbs is the right to privacy and personal liberty in spending time with one’s girl friend or boy friend and doing whatever they please as long as it doesn’t break any law of the land.
It is imperative that young adults be given freedom to make their own decisions, face the consequences, and learn the hard way. Be it academics, or personal life including his or her choice of partner. Existing ‘unwritten’ codes in the society are not a justification to impose any rule of this kind. May I please remind you that at a time when polygamy was a prevalent practice among Hindus, the GoI brought in the Hindu Code bill banning it. It went for forward looking, modern idea of family. Polygamy was part of the so-called ‘Indian tradition’. When the Parliament passed the 1954 Special Marriage act providing legal protection to marriage between any two willing adults (from any religion or caste), it went against the existing, and still existing caste and religious discrimination.
As an Institute of National Importance, what it should do is not to get stuck in a time warp. Unfortunately, the logical, scientific acumen doesn’t penetrate the deep religious ideologies they hold beneath the sophistication of MBA degree or cool, diplomatic words.
Accepted that,(as Adorabell quoted) the administration needs to facilitate forums for “opposite-sex interaction” (whatever that means as a phrase) to ensure “hoslistic” improvement in the personality of all students graduating with the IIT brand.
I would like to ask the people who have commented above, what they mean when they say that the institute, with its policy of not allowing girl students into boys’ rooms, is curbing their right to interact? I mean face it… IIT Madras is a 600 acre campus (which I’m sure gives ample space for students to meet up and interact).
I am also unable to understand what enhancement the provision of allowing girls into boys room will provide so as to increase the interaction between the two. Please enlighten me about the same.
Definecultureplease has come out with statistics about the National Sample Survey Organization, but I’m sure it does take care that all stakeholders in its survey are represented within the constraints of logistical ability. Thus LSG’s argument about involving all stakeholders cannot to be discarded.
Sajad’s remark on culture being harmful to people is unfounded. Culture cannot damage a person. It is just a form of expression of the people. It is how you embrace it which matters. We all live in a society which is inevitably governed by some unwritten codes of conduct which change with time. If we just want to throw them all into the dustbin, we might as well live as hunter-gathers!
Finally, being from IIT, one should not throw a blind eye to the prevailing conditions in other institutes (especially in conservative Chennai) where your comments would be rather preposterous, to mention the least. So, get real! The world outside is rather different from what it is inside IIT!
To all those who are fighting for entry of girls into boys room :
90% of the people don’t give a damn and it doesn’t affect us in anyway whatsoever
Instead of this stupid issue, please fight for lifting of the 85% attendance rule, take a poll for that and 99% students(except a few maggus probably) will vote for abolishing the rule.
Why girls entry is required to boys room??. If it is required for academics projects or group studies then there are lots of places to do that things like library,CCD,class rooms.
What i see in campus after 10 pm is not expected in campus of national importance. We are getting lots of things at cheapest cost because of tax payers money. It shouldn’t be misused.
If yo want space for your personnel life then go outside campus.
1.’Why now?’ question is smartly deviated by Prof.LSG as always. According to his answer ‘certain well-established traditions and norms…’,India has been ever since, why was this need not seen before?
2.Regarding the poll,less participation was due to lack of awareness among people,at a minimal level, if you ask general secretaries of the hostels to circulate among hostel google groups, you would get 60% responses at the least.Non-response can not be taken as a ‘no’. If the response is non-response one, then it should be counted(’cant say in the potions given is a non response’).
3.Regarding students being not treated as adults by parents,didn’t we evolve? We did. Only because certain people were to ready to accept the change and why don’t we become the ambassadors of it using the IIT tag he points out. By saying that parents criticize administration for failures of their wards at many times and suggesting solutions to avoid it, the administration is effectively playing it safe.Whats the solution to improve ‘Indian’ adolescents maturity who are not as mature as they think they are,treat them as immature people and expect them become mature.
4.’keeping in best interests of students..’ is too cliche.I may be off the topic but I would like cite an example.Recently candle light vigil was conducted as a protest to false propagation institute’s image by the media about suicide. The underlying motto was ‘Let the truth prevail’ shared by Prof.LSG himself. Why wasn’t a similar thing done when a student from Narmada committed suicide? These things are done only when integrity of the administration is under question? News which will be forgotten in no matter of time. If it wasn’t for the students participated in it, no one would even know there some protest like that.I ask ‘where the best interests of the students now?’.
Playing it safe is not the game.Playing in spirit is the game.
” My opinion is that Indian adolescents think that they are responsible adults, while we elders know that they are not. After all, we elders can certainly reflect upon our adolescent days and recall our “experiences” and their consequences. Naturally, we are eager to guide our children and youth to avoid the high probability, undesirable effects of their thoughts, words and actions.”
So obviously the blame lies with the students. How dare they even try to be independent, self-governed adults when us parents and teachers have made it clear time and again that you are and will always be treated as second class citizens with no opinions on any matter? Why can’t you simply get it inside that thick head of yours that your polls and mails and protests and demonstrations don’t matter to us? It doesn’t even matter whether you are 18 or 21 or even 50. If you are inside the institute, you do what we tell you. No questions asked. And it goes without saying that you are not allowed to feel offended. We simply do this out of our love for you. We have seen more years than you and obviously know what horrible things can happen if a guy and a girl are allowed to interact within the confined walls of a hostel room. To put it simply, we make the rules, you follow them.
This is such rubbish. Pliss to stop hindering our opposite-sex interactions. You know you’re succeeding.
Dear Prof.LSG, even the National Sample Survey Organization conducts only 55,000 household surveys to public ‘nation-wide’ results. That’s approximately 2.2% of the Indian population. Nearly 10% of students participated in the study. That’s not enough?
While I might agree that Administration will be faulted by some parents (”stray incidents” as the Dean himself says), why should the entry be banned just to avoid these “stray” incidents?
The suppression of adolescent feelings for the opposite sex has, and will continue to be the prime reason for atrocities against the vulnerable. Boys and girls are separated at birth (mostly). The division starts in school (separate rows in classroom, separate stair cases, sometimes even separate classrooms). If it continues even in college, then it is disappointing.
LSG is true when he says that there is no bar on public, social interaction between boys and girls in our institute. But private, personal interaction is equally important. Also, by banning entry of girls into boy’s hostels, what the Administration has effectively done is to avoid blame in time of crisis (whatever done outside the Institute is not within its purview, right?) So the real intention is not to ‘guide’ students, but to avoid blame.
Also, the reasoning mentioned in this article are strikingly to similar to Bal Thackery’s ideas of tradition and Maharashtra as a moral high ground based on religious traditions. It’s sad that a national institute in a secular country has to be administered with “tradition” in mind. No surprises then to why IITs are far behind other universities in the world. We are happy with being one of the best in India. Because we need to champion are culture, even if it is detrimental for our students.
Just because parents think of their children as incapable of living without constant supervision & guidance, it doesn’t mean they actually are incapable of living without constant supervision & guidance. If parents and the administration continue to chaperon the students, this generation and the generations to come will graduate, take up jobs and have no clue what to do with their lives at that point instead of being prepared for it after college. But then again, when has anyone ever thought of anything about the students except “eat well, sleep early, study hard, leave everything else for later.”
Even though I felt girls must be allowed but ,after reading this article the answers of LSG were gawd level… __/\__ and to the point..
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